is high ping = cheating??

[Outback]

Being someone who has just recently moved from 56K to Broadband (1.5meg/128k DSL, if you must know), I can safely say that, all other things being equal and in sync (if still delayed), it's the person on 56K that has the inherent advantage.

And I don't think it's so much packet loss that gives them the advantage as the time it takes for the 56K'er to recieve the packets.

If you're shooting someone, then (at least on your screen), they won't shoot back. Many times, the person at the other end is experiencing the very same thing. All other things being equal, it's usually the first person to run out of ammo that gets killed.

Even on DSL, I still get all the MTA-related loss-of-sync issues I used to. But the latency is definitely reduced.

[Magus]

when I was on 56k I still kicked ass, maybe you just suck. Ever think of that?

i thought about it. thats why i had a couple friends play on my pc too. its the modem. we do great until the server starts getting full. sadly i like playing with 20+ people for true anarchy. this is not a good combo.

@ ponch, yea my college has either t1 or t3's and most of my friends have cable. i know what im missing

Your friends suck too maybe?! Why are you complaining, you know why you can't kill because of lag, then stop testing it on a server thats going to have 20 people, make your own server and only play with your friends or a small amount of people Don't make me call the WAmbulance!

[ashdexx]

when I was on 56k I still kicked ass, maybe you just suck. Ever think of that?

i thought about it. thats why i had a couple friends play on my pc too. its the modem. we do great until the server starts getting full. sadly i like playing with 20+ people for true anarchy. this is not a good combo.

@ ponch, yea my college has either t1 or t3's and most of my friends have cable. i know what im missing

Your friends suck too maybe?! Why are you complaining, you know why you can't kill because of lag, then stop testing it on a server thats going to have 20 people, make your own server and only play with your friends or a small amount of people Don't make me call the WAmbulance!

No, they dont suck. neither do i. i dont always start playing on a crowded-ass server, but its not like i can keep other ppl off (starting my own is a last resort kinda thing), i play, more ppl join, the numbers naturally get higher, and shit happens.

[Magus]

when I was on 56k I still kicked ass, maybe you just suck. Ever think of that?

i thought about it. thats why i had a couple friends play on my pc too. its the modem. we do great until the server starts getting full. sadly i like playing with 20+ people for true anarchy. this is not a good combo.

@ ponch, yea my college has either t1 or t3's and most of my friends have cable. i know what im missing

Your friends suck too maybe?! Why are you complaining, you know why you can't kill because of lag, then stop testing it on a server thats going to have 20 people, make your own server and only play with your friends or a small amount of people Don't make me call the WAmbulance!

No, they dont suck. neither do i. i dont always start playing on a crowded-ass server, but its not like i can keep other ppl off (starting my own is a last resort kinda thing), i play, more ppl join, the numbers naturally get higher, and shit happens.

Well sorry, the way your complaining I figured by now you'd have started your own server. If you're not going to, or haven't, then shut up, you know why its hard, so don't put yourself at risk, go on a server with a low max of people.

[ijsf]

A low ping != cheating

/me notes 'pings higher than 300ms autokick-option'

[b0b0]

...I can't believe people actually said yes. It is really disappointing how much whining there is in MTA.

[Magus]

thats because you have too many stupid people playing a mod, MTA, that is still in BETA dumbasses. Of course you have shit to work out because it still has plenty of bugs. People don't understand that either, its sad really.

[Guest]

I'm gonna stick my head above the bunker here and admit, borg42, that I was the one in question in your post (yes, the one that switched on the invul).

Before I begin with any reasons, I would like to extend an apology to you - I acted quickly and irrationally (something I am slightly prone to!), and agree that I shouldn't have used the trainer. I'm sorry ...

However, from skim-reading the opinions stated in this forum, and amongst the variation in perspectives, the general feel I seem to get is that a fair amount of people agree with me that a high ping is pretty bad, sometimes even nearly as bad as cheating (the latencies quoted as being intolerable, if I remember, are "above 400/500") - in your case, it was a consistent 900+, often exceeding 1000.

I believe I could've understood more at the time had you been using a narrowband connection, but you stated to me in the game that you used DSL - and in my experience, any broadband user with a ~1000 ping would immediately discontinue play and resolve the problem before resuming, or at least find another server with a better route from your location. I actually thought you WERE cheating (jetpack initially, as you were 'warping' due to the extreme lag), and only realised after I had used the trainer that you were lagging badly.

I know the use of trainers can't be justified in this game ... Under pretty much any other circumstances, at any other time, you would have found me firmly in the anti-cheater camp. I will however attempt to offer an explanation as to why I use one at all - basically, because I get so pissed off with other people cheating! It is always usually reserved for minigunners, so that I can get close to them and give them a good hiding with the robber or auto shotgun; and, once they're dead, I always switch it off. I realise that you could disbelieve me on this particular point, and I would forgive you for that given my behaviour on that server, but I don't know how else to convince you that this is the truth <=)

I would like to inform you that, since our 'fracas' on that evening, I have not employed any cheats at all, mainly due to realising how indistinct the line between cheating and technical problems in this game can be (bear in mind I've played this for a relatively short time, less than 2 weeks) ... and yes, it was that particular incident which made me change my views!

My feelings on this subject in short are that anything which degrades the play experience should be avoided if at all possible - this includes trainer cheats, handling tweaks, and lag/packet loss. I realise I'm probably going to be called a hypocrite for saying I have used cheats and condemning them in the same post, but I know what I mean and I'm sure there will be a few others who do too.

If you all wanna flame the hell outta me, go right ahead and I'll try and dodge like an amphetamine-fuelled contortionist =)

[[PiG] Ponch]

If people are going to start kicking for high ping, MTA may need to have a look at their networking code and get rid of that HUGE lag spike that pops up every 20 seconds and makes your ping over 32000, otherwize people are going to be kicked left, right and centre!

Regardless of whether you have low or high ping.

[[KFC]KungFu]

I am quoting them both as a public service. Bad enough you an f'n cheater, Aphix, you could at least quote whoever your answering from three pages back.

i'm really curious about your opinion. i entered a game, fought hard, but just could not kill one guy. he was moving around kinda well, but my m40 got him down in the end, down to yellow. he went back to green (not as a navy guy, not around health spots), i continued hitting, he died on my client, rescurrected, died again, resurrected again. i got into a complaint, then he accused me of cheating (eh, i never did), later told me that since i had bad ping, he turned his cheat on, and killed me, as i was pissing him off. he said i was a cheater, because i had bad ping!! well, is really one's gameplay experience over honour? is it really a nonsense to ask someone to find a closer server, is it really okay to silently cheat agst him/her and still have the morals to show off with his having cheated? what do you think of the whole thing?

(ps. how i long for a version of mta that autokicks cheaters.. i'd accept a customisable ping limiter as well, 'though.)

I'm gonna stick my head above the bunker here and admit, borg42, that I was the one in question in your post (yes, the one that switched on the invul).

Before I begin with any reasons, I would like to extend an apology to you - I acted quickly and irrationally (something I am slightly prone to!), and agree that I shouldn't have used the trainer. I'm sorry ...

However, from skim-reading the opinions stated in this forum, and amongst the variation in perspectives, the general feel I seem to get is that a fair amount of people agree with me that a high ping is pretty bad, sometimes even nearly as bad as cheating (the latencies quoted as being intolerable, if I remember, are "above 400/500") - in your case, it was a consistent 900+, often exceeding 1000.

I believe I could've understood more at the time had you been using a narrowband connection, but you stated to me in the game that you used DSL - and in my experience, any broadband user with a ~1000 ping would immediately discontinue play and resolve the problem before resuming, or at least find another server with a better route from your location. I actually thought you WERE cheating (jetpack initially, as you were 'warping' due to the extreme lag), and only realised after I had used the trainer that you were lagging badly.

I know the use of trainers can't be justified in this game ... Under pretty much any other circumstances, at any other time, you would have found me firmly in the anti-cheater camp. I will however attempt to offer an explanation as to why I use one at all - basically, because I get so pissed off with other people cheating! It is always usually reserved for minigunners, so that I can get close to them and give them a good hiding with the robber or auto shotgun; and, once they're dead, I always switch it off. I realise that you could disbelieve me on this particular point, and I would forgive you for that given my behaviour on that server, but I don't know how else to convince you that this is the truth <=)

I would like to inform you that, since our 'fracas' on that evening, I have not employed any cheats at all, mainly due to realising how indistinct the line between cheating and technical problems in this game can be (bear in mind I've played this for a relatively short time, less than 2 weeks) ... and yes, it was that particular incident which made me change my views!

My feelings on this subject in short are that anything which degrades the play experience should be avoided if at all possible - this includes trainer cheats, handling tweaks, and lag/packet loss. I realise I'm probably going to be called a hypocrite for saying I have used cheats and condemning them in the same post, but I know what I mean and I'm sure there will be a few others who do too.

If you all wanna flame the hell outta me, go right ahead and I'll try and dodge like an amphetamine-fuelled contortionist =)

Well an honest cheater? A contridiction in terms? I am not mad that you used a cheat I am pissed that you have cheats to begin with. If I see someone with a 900 ping I move on I suggest you do too. I hope noone follows your bad example.

I am not willing to trust a cheater to turn them off when they see me. It is very easy to just kill me with the cheat once, then ah what the hell your kill leader you can' t start losing now so you keep using it. Next thing you know your a full blown cheater.

Being a sometimes cheater is like being a bisexual. Either you suck D or you don't, and you suck D.

(not that is funny Kent)

[Magus]

If people are going to start kicking for high ping, MTA may need to have a look at their networking code and get rid of that HUGE lag spike that pops up every 20 seconds and makes your ping over 32000, otherwize people are going to be kicked left, right and centre!

Regardless of whether you have low or high ping.

Well hopefully if they put that in, they will put in a loop in their code to go through and check their ping, so as if their ping is over a certain amount for an amount of time(lets say 1 min.) then they will be kicked. At the midpoint(for the example of 1 min.; 30 sec.) they will be warned, either in the chatbox or like a motd kind of thing. In addition I would like to see a ping indicator somewhere on the hud. ping <200=green 200 < 400 yellow and anything higher red, whichever that amount, decided by the server is what it checks for warn, kick, etc. But thats just my suggestion, and please, do this while you make the game server side!!

[Guest]

KungFuGrip:

It's kinda hard to move on and find someone else to kill when they've just appeared right behind you, seemingly having warped a considerable distance across the map to be there, knocked you over with their shotgun, and are about to deliver the smackdown ... Not saying this is my current thinking, but as mentioned previously I do have a tendency towards a short fuse, and this sort of thing is very frustrating ...

If you're pissed off that I have cheats, then I would assume that you do not have the same level of curiousity as I. I enjoy tinkering with programs, games and mods (indeed even hope to make a career in this field, as a computer science student), as well as I enjoy programming itself - evading computer security, reinforcement and checking systems comes in the parcel for me! I did not encourage anyone else to follow my admittedly bad example, and if you read my post fully you will notice that I have changed my views since that evening and no longer employ such things at all.

I also disagree with your assumption that cheating a bit leads to cheating a lot ... I did state that I never use cheats when playing in any normal situation (normal in this case being defined as nobody cheating, nobody lagging badly), and also that since that evening I have not used them once, in any sort of situation (I know myself that their use was rare enough to begin with). So to me, cheating a little has made me realise that it's not worth it for whatever reason, so I will not be doing so again.

Again I realise this comes down to a matter of trust ... I have stated my reasons for my actions at that time, have admitted to being wrong, and have extended my word that I will not do such things again. I haven't much else to say about this, other than the repeated assertion that I am sorry.

And drawing any sort of sexuality issue into a computer or computer-game related topic is just wrong <=)

[[KFC]KungFu]

KungFuGrip:

It's kinda hard to move on and find someone else to kill when they've just appeared right behind you, seemingly having warped a considerable distance across the map to be there, knocked you over with their shotgun, and are about to deliver the smackdown ... Not saying this is my current thinking, but as mentioned previously I do have a tendency towards a short fuse, and this sort of thing is very frustrating ...

I play a lot and I rarely have this problem. If I do I go to IRC and have them booted. You can also go to another spawn point. None of your rationalization justifies cheating and I am happy you have vowed to change your cheating ways. I hope they are off your computer and that you become some kind of cheater in recovery advocate

If you're pissed off that I have cheats, then I would assume that you do not have the same level of curiousity as I. I enjoy tinkering with programs, games and mods (indeed even hope to make a career in this field, as a computer science student), as well as I enjoy programming itself - evading computer security, reinforcement and checking systems comes in the parcel for me! I did not encourage anyone else to follow my admittedly bad example, and if you read my post fully you will notice that I have changed my views since that evening and no longer employ such things at all.

Same level of curiousity? No I just have enough respect for my fellow MTA'ers to not cheat them out of a fair fight. If you are starting out in life a better lesson would be to have some intergity and honor that will take you farther than your slack moraled curiousity.

I also disagree with your assumption that cheating a bit leads to cheating a lot ... I did state that I never use cheats when playing in any normal situation (normal in this case being defined as nobody cheating, nobody lagging badly), and also that since that evening I have not used them once, in any sort of situation (I know myself that their use was rare enough to begin with). So to me, cheating a little has made me realise that it's not worth it for whatever reason, so I will not be doing so again.

By your definition you always cheat. (see bold) and let me restate, if you removed the cheats from your computer and never use them again, that is good. But don't look for a pat on the back, you still should have never cheated.

Again I realise this comes down to a matter of trust ... I have stated my reasons for my actions at that time, have admitted to being wrong, and have extended my word that I will not do such things again. I haven't much else to say about this, other than the repeated assertion that I am sorry.

Just because you say your sorry doesn't revoke my right to outrage.

And drawing any sort of sexuality issue into a computer or computer-game related topic is just wrong <=)

Your not the only one with a short fuse.

[Guest]

KungFuGrip wrote:

I play a lot and I rarely have this problem. If I do I go to IRC and have them booted. You can also go to another spawn point. None of your rationalization justifies cheating and I am happy you have vowed to change your cheating ways. I hope they are off your computer and that you become some kind of cheater in recovery advocate

Hmm ... First, I wasn't actually aware that there WAS an IRC channel devoted to such things (sounds stupid now that I think about it ), so I think I will be doing that in future, thank you for the advice. If you understand my motives at all (even if you don't agree with them) I think you'll see that it's feeling slightly powerless over this sort of thing that led to the incident in the first place, but nevermind, not justifiable, I know

Second, it wasn't at a spawn point, I think the situation may have been miscommunicated ... I was on a bit of a roll at the time, having just annihilated everything/one that had entered my path, adrenaline flowing etc (WITHOUT cheating, I stress!), so being taken by surprise, so quickly by someone who hadn't even been on the map a few seconds before got me riled up pretty quickly (again, a downside of my short fuse, which I again apologise for).

Third, I don't need 'cheater in recovery' advocacy, trust me I am just as anti-cheater as you!

KungFuGrip wrote:

If you are starting out in life a better lesson would be to have some intergity and honor that will take you farther than your slack moraled curiousity.

I thought I might display that by owning up and communicating my apologies, but oh well ... Curiousity can be used well to expand one's personal knowledge, I don't consider it slack moraled!

[LAG] Aphix wrote:

I did state that I never use cheats when playing in any normal situation (normal in this case being defined as nobody cheating, nobody lagging badly)

KungFuGrip wrote:

By your definition you always cheat. (see bold)

Erm ... what? I said I don't cheat in normal situations, normal being when nobody else is cheating or lagging badly (meaning, by this, an ~1000 ping when everyone else is sub-100!). I fail to see how that means I am cheating all the time, sorry <=)

Let me restate for anyone who isn't back-reading that I don't cheat 99% of the time, it was only for minigunners or other people I thought were invul (and not even then anymore - all gone!).

[b0b0]

thats because you have too many stupid people playing a mod, MTA, that is still in BETA dumbasses. Of course you have shit to work out because it still has plenty of bugs. People don't understand that either, its sad really.

Agreed. The majority of the people I have come across have been the whining 12-year-olds who can't type and are forced to use "u,r,gr8," etc. Ahh man, these kids used to be all over Battle.net, and they were a pain in the butt. That is why I moved to Half-Life. No whining b.net kids.

And here they are in MTA. When I'm trying to chat with my friends, the window gets spammed with "ur cheating!", "y cant i kill u?", "haha ur a n00b", "ur a cheater". FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Can't anyone have a decent game without all of this whining?

[[KFC]KungFu]

haha ur a n00b", "ur a cheater". FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Can't anyone have a decent game without all of this whining?

Not unless you play people you know, I guess.

Aphix didn't really disagree with me so nothing really to respond to there. I just left a game and i spent way too long explaining crap to a guy who thinks that flying isn't cheating. I caught someone else alt tabbed and I was told that it was the "ten yard rule"

I still explain things like lag and sync to the people who cry cheat but it is monotonous and it takes away from primetime killing. Most times it's not cheating. Aphix says above that he was on a roll and ran into the lagger and decided to cheat. Everyone has thier own line about what cheating is I guess

Some of the supercrybaby set have drawn that line way back where someone doesn't have broadband.

Well, you can't argue with fools, because people from a distance can't tell who is who. - JayZ

[b0b0]

Not unless you play people you know, I guess.

True, that is why I go in with many friends

[[KFC]KungFu]

more info on [LAG] Aphix and his ilk

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame68.html

a must read, see general forum for this thread.

umm,

aside - quick say something topical.

high ping isn't cheating it is just annoying sometimes.... umm

/me bolts

[Si|ent]

seems my simple 'No' didnt suffice.

Of course high ping isnt cheating, don't be so rediculous. Yes it is hard to kill someone with a higher ping but that swings both ways, the guy on dialup is going to have a very hard time killing anyone else too, if you see a high pinger and the challenge of aiming ahead is too much for you then move on to another target.

MTA is free for all to play, wether dialup or T3, and bandwidth bigotry that you are showing is plainly disgusting. Thier ping does NOT slow down your experience at all due to the way mta works, so let them play. Just because you have the right area/equipment/income to have broadband doesnt make you better, and certainly doesnt give you the right to look down upon those who dont.

Kicking for high ping is not going to be a feature anytime soon, count on that.

p.s. that 20 second lag spike isnt actually a lag spike, as said elsewhere the ping report shown in the client and in the scoreboard overlay is not 100% accurate nor 100% stable, it is however close enough and regular enough to be worthwhile.

[Guest]

MrBump is correct. Besides, I find it a nice challenge most of the time to try and kill high pingers, including MrBump.

[Guest]

MrBump wrote:

Of course high ping isnt cheating, don't be so rediculous. Yes it is hard to kill someone with a higher ping but that swings both ways, the guy on dialup is going to have a very hard time killing anyone else too, if you see a high pinger and the challenge of aiming ahead is too much for you then move on to another target.

....

Hmm. I have myself tested the effects of a vastly increased ping on my playing experience (its not too hard to create a lot of needless network traffic to slow things down - downloading a few large files in your preferred P2P app should do it easily), and guess what? I found the fluidity and speed of my gameplaying was hardly affected at all, and also found it a hell of a lot easier to stay alive, mainly because whoever I encountered would be firing in completely the wrong direction most of the time (I, however, could still see and hit them fine). Sorry, but I'm doubtful of the validity of your statement here.

As an aside, I have met players in game who employ the artificial traffic creation I have described above *all the time* in order to gain an advantage in game (by this, I am in no way saying that all laggers are of this disposition). Surely, any sort of unfair advantage gained over other players must qualify as a cheat? Just because it's not a trainer/handling mod/whatever else you're used to doesn't mean it's fair.

MrBump wrote:

MTA is free for all to play, wether dialup or T3, and bandwidth bigotry that you are showing is plainly disgusting. Thier ping does NOT slow down your experience at all due to the way mta works, so let them play. Just because you have the right area/equipment/income to have broadband doesnt make you better, and certainly doesnt give you the right to look down upon those who dont.

This guy was on a DSL connection, he said so to me himself in the game. A ping of 1000 on a DSL pipe is f*cking horrific. Do not try to argue with that statement.

Also, I have in no way attempted to convey any sort of negative attitude towards narrowband users - I can remember using a 14400 baud modem to connect through a Bahranian ISP to the internet (giving about 0.1 kbps on a good day) when I lived in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia (the long-distance dialup being necessary to evade the Saudis' internet content filtering systems). My point is that I well remember the frustration of a slow connection ... I didn't even bother trying to play online games for the three years that I lived there, simply because I knew the connection couldn't handle it. If you have any further spiel on this issue for me, or still think I am a 'bandwidth bigot' ... I'm not sure I want to continue

My essential point here is still that if you have a 1000 ping on a DSL connection, then there is a problem, and if you don't fix the problem before playing it's either because you don't care about detracting from others' playing experience (maybe even knowing it gives you an advantage), or because you aren't even aware of the problem or don't know how to resolve it. Come on - you shouldn't be getting a 1000 ping even on a 56k, especially if you choose your server wisely!

[Si|ent]

I've played on dialup, and ive played on broadband, believe me it is a LOT harder to kill anyone (and yes, be killed) on dialup

Surely, any sort of unfair advantage gained over other players must qualify as a cheat?

In which case once our netcode improves and a low ping is an 'advantage' do you suggest we start kicking people for a LOW ping? As the advantage will at this point rest with those that have one. Perhaps kick people who have an optical mouse and a fast pc, they have much smoother play and more accurate aiming, advantages both.

The only reason high ping players are kicked from most online games is the fact they slow down the experience for all other players on that server, this does not happen in mta.

[Slothman]

this very same debate has flamed up in every game forum when broadband first started being widely used.

LPB vs HPB, Who is right?

rather than segregation by connection speed, let us unite. I have played against both LPBs and HPBs, and i can honestly say, there is little difference. i can dispatch 56kers just as easily as the broadband fellas, or vica verca (they can kill me)

could it be less to do with the connection, and more to do with player skill? is it possible that because people have 56k connections, they do not play online games as much, and consequentially, are less skilled?

i'm not saying all 56kers are lamer n00bs, but can they honestly say that they have had as much multiplayer experience? (i know some can, but as a group?)

[Guest]

MrBump wrote:

I have played against both LPBs and HPBs, and i can honestly say, there is little difference. i can dispatch 56kers just as easily as the broadband fellas, or vica verca (they can kill me)

On the whole, I would agree with you in this area 100% ...

MrBump wrote:

In which case once our netcode improves and a low ping is an 'advantage' do you suggest we start kicking people for a LOW ping? As the advantage will at this point rest with those that have one. Perhaps kick people who have an optical mouse and a fast pc, they have much smoother play and more accurate aiming, advantages both.

Hmm ... I don't agree with the thinking that 56kers should be kicked because they lag - again, what I'm saying is that a broadband user with that kind of latency should correct the problem before playing, if only out of courtesy for those who are going to be shooting at them (I would!).

It's not just the delay (ie, having to shoot ahead of people) that is frustrating, packet loss and thus client desynchronisation both are amplified when the route to the server is poor (which is the only explanation I can think of for a DSL'er to have that kind of ping, unless they have left their P2P app running or something) ... It could be as easy as switching servers to resolve the problem (and don't say it's not a problem, it IS!!).

Shooting at people who aren't really there isn't fun, is all I'm saying ... (and yes I can tell the difference between an active player and a 'ghost' ) Being killed by someone who wasn't even there to you is even less fun (direct result of packet loss - you know it is!).

[pokepets360]

I wasted half my time shooting someone right in front of me when he really was in the back... sucks really